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New front wings - in fibreglass!

Listing of rare XJ40 parts and where to find them
naki_k
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Location: Kirton, nr Boston, Lincolnshire

Re: New front wings - in fibreglass!

Postby naki_k » Thu Sep 28, 2017 1:24 am

SovverBovver wrote:I wish Jaguar would support our model properly. That way we could just replace a rusty steel panel with a new steel item made on the proper tools.

Surely they'd make a small fortune out of XJ40 wings (front but also rear), but also floors, sills, jacking points and rear deck panels.


This would be interesting to link onto the long running JCP thread. To summarise though, very often when new stock parts have been reintroduced, the cost is huge, relative to what people are currently willing to pay.
For example, X300/ X308 wings are still available new, but at £400 each, unpainted, they are a sizeable investment. Especially as most times both will be needed, plus painting of course.

I can't imagine that if JCP did ever remake front wings they could be anything under £600 each. Possibly much more. So who would pay that currently? Not many I suspect, but in years to come, that may be considered a worthwhile investment?
Look how much they charge for E-Type panels (that have obviously been remanufactured).
88 3.6 XJ6 PDH/CEM
90 Range Rover Vogue SE 3.9 V8 LPG
91 3.2 XJ6 SportPack Manual
91 4.0 XJ6 Manual
92 4.0 XJR Manual
92 4.0 XJR
93 3.2s - 4.0 Manual conv
93 4.0 Sovereign
93 6.0 XJ81 DD6
93 6.0 XJ81 XJ12
94 4.0 XJR
96 4.0 X306 XJR
96 4.0 X300 D6
97 4.0 X300 Sport Manual
2000 LR Discovery ES TD5 A
Breaking 40/ 300

Aidan
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Location: Tonbridge, Kent

Re: New front wings - in fibreglass!

Postby Aidan » Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:46 am

katar83 wrote:
Aidan wrote:But I believe Mercedes do still support their older models much better than Jaguar, although I suspect that might be because they are a much bigger company than Jaguar, more of a multi-national industrial conglomerate than a middle-sized car maker, so I guess they can afford to keep the presses running a bit more?


A friend of mine is planning to restore his W123 next year that was last running 10-15 years ago and that no longer has sills or floors. We had a browse around recently for all new panels that he'll need and you can literally buy every single panel for pretty much peanuts. We found two new doors, sills(inner and outer), all floor panels, posts and all sorts of other small bits and bobs for ~£250!

I couldn't even buy a single front wing for my XJS for that money, I was really annoyed :)


A W123... first car I ever owned, and my brother chugs around in a +500 000 km example in Phoenix (with non-functioning airconditioning in Arizon's heat :D !).
They are great cars and I was thinking of buying one at the time I bought my 3.2S, but they're really costly or else a bag or rust. Still, they are perfect example of what I meant. Perhaps Mercedes and the aftermarket panel makers know there is a bigger market for W123 panels globally because they sold more W123s than Jaguar sold XJ40s?
I think it's fibreglass for non-structural panels and breakers' yard for all the rest for us 40 owners.
Aidan

1994 Moroccan Red XJ40 3,2 Sport ("Ruby")
1995 Jade Green X300 3,2 Sovereign ("Jade")
2005 Cedar Green Pearl Volvo XC 90 SE

carlmt
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Re: New front wings - in fibreglass!

Postby carlmt » Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:26 am

I think it is going to be interesting to see how a fibreglass sunroof panel can be made - what is needed most?

Here is a pic courtesy of Pim of the underside of one :

Image

Whilst the top side is relatively flat, the underside has a supporting frame and the top skin is crimped around this frame in a similar manner to a door. Do these frames rust out? Is it only worth investigating a top skin that can be bonded to an existing frame? I doubt that that idea would work. I think that any fibreglass sunroof panel would have to incorporate 2 parts - the outer skin and an inner frame. These would then have to be bonded together and the edge cleaned up to accept the weather seal.

Not so simple - but we will prevail........................

CT 8-)
1990 Daimler 4.0 638778
First registered 01.01.1991
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naki_k
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Location: Kirton, nr Boston, Lincolnshire

Re: New front wings - in fibreglass!

Postby naki_k » Thu Sep 28, 2017 1:20 pm

Perhaps another sideline business for you Carl?
CMT Panel Producers?
88 3.6 XJ6 PDH/CEM
90 Range Rover Vogue SE 3.9 V8 LPG
91 3.2 XJ6 SportPack Manual
91 4.0 XJ6 Manual
92 4.0 XJR Manual
92 4.0 XJR
93 3.2s - 4.0 Manual conv
93 4.0 Sovereign
93 6.0 XJ81 DD6
93 6.0 XJ81 XJ12
94 4.0 XJR
96 4.0 X306 XJR
96 4.0 X300 D6
97 4.0 X300 Sport Manual
2000 LR Discovery ES TD5 A
Breaking 40/ 300

carlmt
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Location: Redditch, Worcestershire

Re: New front wings - in fibreglass!

Postby carlmt » Thu Sep 28, 2017 3:16 pm

naki_k wrote:Perhaps another sideline business for you Carl?
CMT Panel Producers?


:lol: :lol: :lol:

That all depends on how much it would cost to produce the masters - knowing how much the masters for my ships cost!

Ideally, I would like to be able to see if the initial cost of the masters can be spread across a few of us, with those chipping in getting their panels "at cost".
I would then like to explore the possibility of selling the masters to a third party - either one of the specialist Jaguar parts suppliers or the JEC - to recoup the initial investment for those that contributed so that they can get the majority, if not all, of their investment back.

I have a fear that the tooling investment might be too great for me to bear alone otherwise I would and, as you say, sell the panels myself - with a discount to club members of course!

Lets see what my chap has to say about it.......... I think the time is right to explore this avenue now. The perceived values of our cars is climbing and, while f/g panels are not the connoisseurs choice, I dont think we have any option at this time but to explore them if we want to keep our cars in a presentable condition.
1990 Daimler 4.0 638778
First registered 01.01.1991
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Jaguarxj40
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Location: West Sussex

Re: New front wings - in fibreglass!

Postby Jaguarxj40 » Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:08 pm

Hi carlmt,
Just been reading this thread, it's very interesting and not that I need any wings as I brought a pair of rust free ones a couple of years ago that are now on the car but if you can get this off the ground I would like to buy a pair just in case and put them in the loft, so if this goes ahead and you can get enough of us to invest, then please count me in.
Current
1996 BMW Z3
1990 Jaguar XJ40 4.0

Previous,
1986 BMW M535i
1985 BMW 525e
1972 Vauxhall victor FE 2300
1966 Ford cortina estate
1961 Renault dauphine Gordini
1978 Range Rover
1976 Land Rover 101 forward control
1968 series 2 light weight Land Rover
1975 Range Rover
1973 Range Rover
1972 series 3 Land Rover SWB

SovverBovver
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Re: New front wings - in fibreglass!

Postby SovverBovver » Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:08 pm

carlmt wrote:I am not so sure that the original tooling exists anymore to have the wings stamped out. And to have a new tool made would cost so many thousands that the per part cost to us would be astronomical - imagine along the lines of £300 to £500 per wing?


I read in an XJ40 book that Jag did keep the press tools and put them into storage, or at least were planning to. However whether they got thrown away since the book was printed is another story.

Even if the tools aren't available, I'd expect Jag kept the files to produce the correct tool with the proper body profile so they should be able to reproduce a steel wing that fits properly and is in all respects identical to the parts made years ago. As for paying £300 - £500 for a new front wing... a volume manufacturer like Jaguar can reduce these costs to much more manageable levels than outside players can with small contracts. £300 (say) for a new front wing isn't so bad in comparison to modern car parts.

Buying a quality new part has got to be better than messing about with filler trying to hide weld distortion where patches are welded in and there will always a negative stigma attached to using fibreglass replacements.
1992 Jaguar Sovereign

naki_k
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Re: New front wings - in fibreglass!

Postby naki_k » Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:49 pm

SovverBovver wrote:
carlmt wrote:I am not so sure that the original tooling exists anymore to have the wings stamped out. And to have a new tool made would cost so many thousands that the per part cost to us would be astronomical - imagine along the lines of £300 to £500 per wing?


I read in an XJ40 book that Jag did keep the press tools and put them into storage, or at least were planning to. However whether they got thrown away since the book was printed is another story.

Even if the tools aren't available, I'd expect Jag kept the files to produce the correct tool with the proper body profile so they should be able to reproduce a steel wing that fits properly and is in all respects identical to the parts made years ago. As for paying £300 - £500 for a new front wing... a volume manufacturer like Jaguar can reduce these costs to much more manageable levels than outside players can with small contracts. £300 (say) for a new front wing isn't so bad in comparison to modern car parts.

Buying a quality new part has got to be better than messing about with filler trying to hide weld distortion where patches are welded in and there will always a negative stigma attached to using fibreglass replacements.


You may want to have a read of this. Related discussion.
But i will mention same example again. If they charge £275+vat for a New Stock Lower Radiator cradle for late 40/ X300, that gives you some idea of the pricing structure currently.

viewtopic.php?f=62&t=5895&start=90
Last edited by naki_k on Sat Sep 30, 2017 11:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
88 3.6 XJ6 PDH/CEM
90 Range Rover Vogue SE 3.9 V8 LPG
91 3.2 XJ6 SportPack Manual
91 4.0 XJ6 Manual
92 4.0 XJR Manual
92 4.0 XJR
93 3.2s - 4.0 Manual conv
93 4.0 Sovereign
93 6.0 XJ81 DD6
93 6.0 XJ81 XJ12
94 4.0 XJR
96 4.0 X306 XJR
96 4.0 X300 D6
97 4.0 X300 Sport Manual
2000 LR Discovery ES TD5 A
Breaking 40/ 300

SovverBovver
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Posts: 380
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Location: In a garage

Re: New front wings - in fibreglass!

Postby SovverBovver » Fri Sep 29, 2017 6:21 pm

naki_k wrote:You may want to have a read of this. Related discussion.
But i will mention date example again. If they charge £275+vat for a New Stock Lower Radiator cradle for late 40/ X300, that gives you some idea of the pricing structure currently.



I wouldn't want to fork out £275+vat for a Lower Radiator cradle either. However, at least the correct part is available if someone really needs one.

If an owner has an otherwise lovely car that they can't use because a vital bit has broken, they'll be happy to get a new replacement part. They might grumble about the cost but it'll soon get forgotten when they continue to enjoy their car. If they can't get the bits, people will just give up with the car.
1992 Jaguar Sovereign

carlmt
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Re: New front wings - in fibreglass!

Postby carlmt » Sat Oct 14, 2017 9:53 pm

OK folks!!!

Was down with my fabricator this morning discussing the possibilities / feasibilities / costs etc. of producing XJ40 wings and sunroofs in fibreglass.

Now - this chap, as I said before, is a craftsman and I would have no concerns about his work myself, but what he told me really got my interest.

No problem at all apparently - cost per side for the mould would be £200 (so £400 for the tools for two wings) and a pair of wings, finished in white gel-coat....................

£250 the pair.

He needs to see first hand what the sunroof is like to be able to quote accurately, but it would most likely be two parts (one being the outer skin and the other the frame) bonded in the shop ready to paint and fit.

What we need now - for the wings - is a pair of good, straight wings; not repaired or dented in any way, for use as the patterns for the tools. These wings will not be damaged in any way as the coating applied before the lay-up of the gel-coat and glass is benign.

As for the cost of the tooling, I will make this investment myself.

Views?

CT 8-)
1990 Daimler 4.0 638778
First registered 01.01.1991
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