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Rust is our enemy and we shall defeat it

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katar83
Distinguished Mbr
Posts: 2502
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2011 11:17 am
Location: Cambridge

Rust is our enemy and we shall defeat it

Postby katar83 » Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:03 pm

I'm currently experimenting with rust removal on my old calipers. As you probably all know, Deox-C works amazing when it comes to rust but not the cheapest stuff around. I normally also use citric acid as it is cheap, super safe, and works very well but also someone recommended me oxalic acid(you can find it in rhubarb) which I've decided to try today.
Both citric acid and Deox-C will leave some black rust(which is ok) on the surface which can be a bit of a pain to clean up afterwards(stainy!) but as it turns out oxalic acid will dissolve the black rust within minutes leaving perfect clean metal :o

One thing neither of these chemicals will remove though is this:

Image

The funny, orangy spots here that look rusty are patches of crumbly iron, they are proper stuck, will not dissolve in anything I've tried so far and I'm unsure what this actually is. If I hit it with hammer it will chip off fairly easily.

By the way I've started with this:

Image

Image

Also, I've packed my entire rear a-frame in a polythene(800 gauge) bag that are normally used for mattresses, poured couple of buckets of water with some citric acid and currently using same method to derust the whole thing, more on this soon :)
1997, 4.0 LWB X300 - Unlucky car but still a daily driver.
1988, 3.6S XJS - Never ending restoration project.
1994, 3.2S X300 - Accident damaged, October 2015. Gone!
1994, 3.2S XJ40 - Long gone.

Walker
Posts: 132
Joined: Fri May 01, 2015 8:10 am
Location: Inverness

Re: Rust is our enemy and we shall defeat it

Postby Walker » Sat Nov 17, 2018 4:17 pm

Did you ever try electrolysis/electrolytic rust removal? Really easy to do and safe, I used a 12v car battery charger and a 35l tub. Plenty of videos on Youtube etc but was hard to research about 8 year back when I first tried it. Finally decided the final setup including a fish tank heater and an electrolyte solution made up with caustic soda. The process is slow, but you'd be amazed how much comes off after an over night bubble. I work for a shot blasting company these days, so no farting about just take a bootfull to work 8-)
Kingfisher Blue '40 1993 3.2S #690760 L399GYP
Sapphire Blue '40 1994 Gold 3.2 #702107 L9CYD
Previous 1994 X300 3.2 Manual

donkeyotty
North Wales Rep
Posts: 5081
Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2010 9:39 pm
Location: North Wales

Re: Rust is our enemy and we shall defeat it

Postby donkeyotty » Sat Nov 17, 2018 5:18 pm

As has been said before we can never get rid of rust just slow it down, unless of course you cut it out and replace it with fresh steel. Deox-C is good stuff but yes expensive and great if you can immerse an item in it, fair play to you for getting a whole rear frame immersed :o
One of the benefits of having a car long term is being able to monitor previous rust killing attempts using various concoctions. I used Vactan for years but only with what I deemed to be limited success. The default brand now seems to be Jenolite ( which I have now returned to ) which is enjoying a resurgence with several new products on the market including a spray option. Whenever I use any rust killer I tend not to cover it over with thick under seal as it becomes impossible to monitor it in the future. I prefer Hammerite spray black under seal to give a nice thin smooth covering.
We all have our preferred methods and branded concoctions, be good to know of others.
1994 Regency Red 4.0 Sovereign M117FVC Chassis 705979
1993 Volvo 940 2.0 Turbo Wentworth Estate

Jaguarxj40
Snr Member
Posts: 238
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2017 3:53 pm
Location: Pagam West Sussex

Re: Rust is our enemy and we shall defeat it

Postby Jaguarxj40 » Sat Nov 17, 2018 10:27 pm

katar83 wrote:I'm currently experimenting with rust removal on my old calipers. As you probably all know, Deox-C works amazing when it comes to rust but not the cheapest stuff around. I normally also use citric acid as it is cheap, super safe, and works very well but also someone recommended me oxalic acid(you can find it in rhubarb) which I've decided to try today.
Both citric acid and Deox-C will leave some black rust(which is ok) on the surface which can be a bit of a pain to clean up afterwards(stainy!) but as it turns out oxalic acid will dissolve the black rust within minutes leaving perfect clean metal :o

One thing neither of these chemicals will remove though is this:

Image

The funny, orangy spots here that look rusty are patches of crumbly iron, they are proper stuck, will not dissolve in anything I've tried so far and I'm unsure what this actually is. If I hit it with hammer it will chip off fairly easily.

By the way I've started with this:

Image

Image

Also, I've packed my entire rear a-frame in a polythene(800 gauge) bag that are normally used for mattresses, poured couple of buckets of water with some citric acid and currently using same method to derust the whole thing, more on this soon :)


Hi Katar83,

I've read your other rust removal remedy in another post some time ago and found that a bit too fussy for me but this is a far simpler process, do you buy this in powdered form and mix it or liquid. I can see on the internet it's available in either form.

Does this oxalic acid attack rubber components :?:

You always amaze me with your solutions to common problems, now I have this itchy problem on my............don't worry. :) ;)

Gary.
Current
1996 BMW Z3
1990 Jaguar XJ40 4.0

Previous,in this order.
1986 BMW M535i
1985 BMW 525e
1972 Vauxhall victor FE2300
1966 Ford cortina estate
1961 Renault dauphine Gordini
1978 Range Rover
1976 LR 101 forward control
1968 S2 lightweight Land Rover
1975 Range Rover
1973 Range Rover
1972 series 3 Land Rover SWB

old del boy
Distinguished Mbr
Posts: 6888
Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:29 am
Location: Kent

Re: Rust is our enemy and we shall defeat it

Postby old del boy » Sun Nov 18, 2018 1:34 am

I've been repairing rusted areas for many years and i've found jenolite to be pretty good , it does really need as much rust sanding or grinding off to get the best results , i combine this with a couple of coats of Bonda zinc primer which is a resin and you can get it in a spray or as i prefer in 500 ml tins for brushing , when this has cured i overpaint with a grey primer to get the colour right but once the Bonda has cured you can leave it for months without any further coating and it will not rust , i'm sure some of you older guys remember years ago seeing cars with a wing in a red oxide type colour , some cars stayed like this for ages as they used to say it just got harder and having no top coat didn't do it any harm , i've done it myself .

Like Don i'm not a fan of thick underseal , it just hides any bubbles that may pop up , i use Dinitrol 2315 as a base coat [ thin brown wax that gets in to seams etc] and when dry finished of with Dinitrol 4941 which is a black wax that sets hard and dry to the touch and is self healing , i'm convinced my methods have saved my Rover SD1 to the extent that it's now an extremely rare model as very few are left of of the thousands made , i think the last time i looked there were only around 20 taxed .

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Bonda-Rust-P ... :rk:2:pf:0

https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from ... l&_sacat=0

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Jenolite-Rus ... :rk:3:pf:0

Derek..
'93 4.0L Daimler, solent blue,
'93 4.0L Daimler, Westminster,
'85 2600 Rover sd1 vdp oporto.

katar83
Distinguished Mbr
Posts: 2502
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2011 11:17 am
Location: Cambridge

Re: Rust is our enemy and we shall defeat it

Postby katar83 » Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:39 pm

Walker wrote:Did you ever try electrolysis/electrolytic rust removal? Really easy to do and safe, I used a 12v car battery charger and a 35l tub. Plenty of videos on Youtube etc but was hard to research about 8 year back when I first tried it. Finally decided the final setup including a fish tank heater and an electrolyte solution made up with caustic soda. The process is slow, but you'd be amazed how much comes off after an over night bubble. I work for a shot blasting company these days, so no farting about just take a bootfull to work 8-)


Sure, I deliberately skipped electrolysis here as even though its the best way to remove rust, its probably not for everyone :roll:

Image

Electrolysis of course did remove rest of the funny orange crumbly metal that would not dissolve in acid. After an overnight dip, all the remaining spots cleaned off easily.

Image

That's my proper setup for smaller things, with graphite rods which make a hell of a difference compared to normal anodes, when using graphite rods, there is very little mess, sadly don't have a large enough tank to do whole a-frame but I did get it in eventually, after an initial acid dip, just needed to get creative with a polythene bag :lol:

Image

Because I've used normal steel as anodes here, its a very rusty soup :lol:

I'd say its 75% cleaned up now. Will get it finished soon.

Jaguarxj40 wrote:
Hi Katar83,

I've read your other rust removal remedy in another post some time ago and found that a bit too fussy for me but this is a far simpler process, do you buy this in powdered form and mix it or liquid. I can see on the internet it's available in either form.

Does this oxalic acid attack rubber components :?:

You always amaze me with your solutions to common problems, now I have this itchy problem on my............don't worry.

Gary.


Hah, I get the citric acid online in a crystal form in 5kg plastic boxes, its excellent stuff and works wonders, just mix with hot water and dip the part, most rust disappears overnight :)
Oxalic acid work similar although you cant leave it like with the citric one in the kitchen, it either needs to go outside or in a ventilated area, at least when it works and eats the rust.
I prefer citric acid, just easier to use and less hassle but will keep oxalic for a quick final wash :)

donkeyotty wrote:As has been said before we can never get rid of rust just slow it down, unless of course you cut it out and replace it with fresh steel. Deox-C is good stuff but yes expensive and great if you can immerse an item in it, fair play to you for getting a whole rear frame immersed :o
One of the benefits of having a car long term is being able to monitor previous rust killing attempts using various concoctions. I used Vactan for years but only with what I deemed to be limited success. The default brand now seems to be Jenolite ( which I have now returned to ) which is enjoying a resurgence with several new products on the market including a spray option. Whenever I use any rust killer I tend not to cover it over with thick under seal as it becomes impossible to monitor it in the future. I prefer Hammerite spray black under seal to give a nice thin smooth covering.
We all have our preferred methods and branded concoctions, be good to know of others.



old del boy wrote:I've been repairing rusted areas for many years and i've found jenolite to be pretty good , it does really need as much rust sanding or grinding off to get the best results , i combine this with a couple of coats of Bonda zinc primer which is a resin and you can get it in a spray or as i prefer in 500 ml tins for brushing , when this has cured i overpaint with a grey primer to get the colour right but once the Bonda has cured you can leave it for months without any further coating and it will not rust , i'm sure some of you older guys remember years ago seeing cars with a wing in a red oxide type colour , some cars stayed like this for ages as they used to say it just got harder and having no top coat didn't do it any harm , i've done it myself .

Like Don i'm not a fan of thick underseal , it just hides any bubbles that may pop up , i use Dinitrol 2315 as a base coat [ thin brown wax that gets in to seams etc] and when dry finished of with Dinitrol 4941 which is a black wax that sets hard and dry to the touch and is self healing , i'm convinced my methods have saved my Rover SD1 to the extent that it's now an extremely rare model as very few are left of of the thousands made , i think the last time i looked there were only around 20 taxed .

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Bonda-Rust-P ... :rk:2:pf:0

https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from ... l&_sacat=0

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Jenolite-Rus ... :rk:3:pf:0

Derek..


All the things I've painted with Vactan on my super rusty XJS are still fine with not a spec of rust and the car sits outside although like Derek I find that Vactan is just part success here and ideally need to be used with a paint/primer containing zinc, this seem to stop the rust completely and can be then covered with whatever paint you have.

Dinitrol is great and thanks to you Derek I think I have now a lifetime supply of it, been stocking up for many years, a can here and there, whenever you mention it pretty much, would be great if it wasn't so expensive compared to others but it is proper quality stuff! :)
1997, 4.0 LWB X300 - Unlucky car but still a daily driver.
1988, 3.6S XJS - Never ending restoration project.
1994, 3.2S X300 - Accident damaged, October 2015. Gone!
1994, 3.2S XJ40 - Long gone.

abercanadian
Snr Member
Posts: 1104
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2012 6:50 am
Location: Vancouver Island

Re: Rust is our enemy and we shall defeat it

Postby abercanadian » Sun Nov 18, 2018 11:50 pm

I always used a rust converter (plain ol' phosphoric acid) on rusty areas, it turns the iron oxide (rust) into a black, inert iron compound, ferric phosphate. Prime it then paint it - job done.

Larry
Image
94 XJ40 VDP vin 701729
Oyster Metallic/Doeskin on Aero Alloys
220,000 Kilometers/136,700 Miles
Daily Driver

94 XJ40 SOVEREIGN vin 703632
Diamond Blue Metallic/Barley
111,000 Kilometers/69,000 Miles
Parts Car

Steve_D
Snr Member
Posts: 227
Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2014 1:45 pm

Re: Rust is our enemy and we shall defeat it

Postby Steve_D » Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:29 pm

abercanadian wrote:I always used a rust converter (plain ol' phosphoric acid) on rusty areas, it turns the iron oxide (rust) into a black, inert iron compound, ferric phosphate. Prime it then paint it - job done.

Larry

Yes, my preference is "Jenolite" which is Phosphoric acid suspended in a gel.


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